Discussion Forum
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
I am framing a dormer project with a shed roof in the middle of two gable roofs.
When asking the architect how to do some of the trickier roof framing where the
valley of the gable roofs meet the shed roof (with no supporting wall below the
valley, he said that i’ll have to “California Frame” The Gable roofs. I’ve never heard
this term before, anyone?
Replies
Piffin | |#1
No idea what he's specifically talking about.
California framing usually means fast, low quality slamitup methods. Sometimes the quality doesn't suffer that much - gang cutting for speed, etc. but in this case where the framing will be difficult to finese and still have it be structurally right, he could have been saying, "I'll have to take some shortcuts and jury rig this thing."
or
Since he's an architect instead of a framer, he might have not had any idea what he was talking about and was blowing wind your way 'till he found out how he's gonna have it done, the old "dazzle'em with briliance or #### routine"
.
Excellence is its own reward!
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Timuhler | |#2
I'm assuming that he wants you to frame blind valleys (california valleys, over framed valleys, scotch valley, etc.) The rafters from the upper ridge would land on some kind of header and then the dormer roof would land on those rafters.
Here is a picture from someone else's website. You can see that the gable will over frame onto rafters that have been sheathed already. This is typical if you are using trusses or the ceiling below is vaulted. Hope this helps.
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Framer | |#5
Tim,
Some Architects call them False Valleys or Lay Over Valleys.
Have you ever beveled a sleeper? ;-)
Joe Carola (The Hulk)
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Edgar76b | |#9
kant strips?Where there's A wheel there's a way, got any wheels?
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GoldenWreckedAngle | |#29
Have you ever beveled a sleeper? ;-)
No, but I've stuck their fingers in warm water before... it was very funny!Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
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Piffin | |#30
Hunh???
Must be another one of those California things.
;).
Excellence is its own reward!
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GoldenWreckedAngle | |#31
No, just an adolescent thing. Catch someone passed out at a party and put there fingers in a bowl of warm water. Nine times out of ten they will wet their pants.
As to this whole overframed, overlapped, Californiagable thing - I've got one of them designedto center over the front door onthe porchfor my house. I didn't bother detailing it either.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
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Piffin | |#32
LOL
Memory flash from summer camp.
Excellence is its own reward!
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Framer | |#33
No, just an adolescent thing. Catch someone passed out at a party and put there fingers in a bowl of warm water. Nine times out of ten they will wet their pants.
I tried that on my sisters when we were kidswhile they were sleeping, when that didn't work I would plug their nose and cover their mouth at the same time.
Momma Carolawent through a lot of wooden spoons on me.............;-)
I wasn't laughing to hard when my sister put NAIR or NARE (women use it to remove hair on their legs) on my left eyebrow one night and the next morning when I woke up I smelled something like rotten eggs and when I went into the bathroom I saw something on my eyebrow and I wiped it off and half my eyebrow was gone.
What a sin for me ha..............;-)
See AlsoCalifornia Roof Framing Techniques - Fine HomebuildingBerkeley Mystery WallsHow to Frame a Wall Corner - A Complete GuideWho Built California’s East Bay Walls? – Legends of AmericaJoe Carola
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Piffin | |#34
Gives new meaning to the term, "Raising your eyebrow."
Makes it into a Carolian Stare
I shudder to think of ever receiving one...LOL.
Excellence is its own reward!
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Framer | |#35
Gives new meaning to the term, "Raising your eyebrow."
Makes it into a Carolian Stare I shudder to think of ever receiving one...LOL
I deserved it. I guess I was an annoying brother when we were kids. For some reason my mother didn't break any wooden spoons over my sisters.
Now I know that youbehaved youreselfwhen you were a kid right? ;-)
Joe Carola
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Piffin | |#39
I get to claim that no spoons were broken...
But
We did get to use splinters from yardsticks for kindling occasionally....
Excellence is its own reward!
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dIrishInMe | |#6
Looks like several of us were typing at the same time. From what I can see in your picture it looks like the valley board (or whatever you call it) is left out on that overframe.
The origional purpose for the pic I posted was to illustrate the valley board (I think it says "2x nailing base", or something similar). Around here if you leave out the valley board and the inspector sees it, you'll be nailing blocking in on the underside of the sheathing for the next 2 hrs.
Matt
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Timuhler | |#7
I tried to download your pic, but my virus scanner said it had a virus.
I think in the pic I posted, the framer hadn't put the sleeper board down yet. I don't know though.
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Wayfarer | |#8
The same thing happened to me, but trying it a second time it worked.
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heck22 | |#3
I haven't met an architect yet that I would ask 'how' to frame anything.
If you push him/her for a detailed drawing, I almost guarantee that no one alive would be able to frame it as drawn, or that the dormer would be upside down.
Find a roof framer you trust and have him go to the site and talk you through it.
what the heck
was I thinking?edit: sp
Edited 8/20/2003 11:23:59 PM ET by Heck
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dIrishInMe | |#4
I think california roof framing basically refers to a blind valley. It's not clear to me the configuration of the roof you are framing, but for a simple gable roof with, say a doghouse dormercomming off the main roof (gable dormer with ridge at 90 degrees to main house ridge) you would frame the roofnormally, except that you might put a double rafter on either side of where the dormer is to go, and a header between the doubles. That, and leave a hole in the roof sheating where the dormer is to go. Then just build the dormer on top of what you have already built. No valley rafters.
Attached is a word doc with a picture of a blind valley. The picture was for something else, but it may give you the idea.
Matt
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Edgar76b | |#10
the only thing i know about california framing is the "california corner" and that is where two walls meet perpendicular to one another. It is how you lay out the studs , as to provide anchoring for the adjacent wall while also adding a nailer for sheetrock. the problem is , it is insulated less than the other stud bays. And personally i think that is where the term "california corner "comes from. Since the insulation wouldn't be as important in california. ( depending on where you live ) I will try to draw it out and post it. but you all Know what it is already.
Where there's A wheel there's a way, got any wheels?
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woodbutch | |#37
The California corner has been declared illegal, you must now have a three stud channel at the ends of a wall, The answer to the person posting the question is, He is describing a "California fill" which several people have posted under a differnt name but is the same thing. Somebody posted a diagram of a "California Fill". Hack
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Edgar76b | |#11
thats about the best i can do.
Where there's A wheel there's a way, got any wheels?
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skids | |#12
a "california frame" refers to a false or built up section of the roof framing. if it is not a cathedral ceiling, or if the ceiling is built up or furred out from the actual structural members of the roof be they trusses or rafters then i think that is what some of the other posters are refering to as blind. you build the roof structure, usually with trusses, then sheet with plywood, then build the "california" section on top of the sheeted roof structure, using the roof structure to support the area where you say in your post "with no supporting walls below the valley"
california was a hotbed of inovation in the post WWII boom of tract house construction. as a native and lifelong resident of california myself, as well as a lifelong builder, ( i began my carpenters union apprenticeship in 1976) i have seen many of these "california" roofs, in many variations. it is a method of giving the homeowner architectural detail from the exterior for the least amount of money. as other posters here have expressed, it is cheap. if you have the choice between 1500 sq' box for $15,000, or same size with "california" architectural details for $16,000 or full on custom 1500 sq' for $25,000, which would you pick?
in the late summer of 77 i was sent by the contractor i worked for along with 3 journeymen to build 6 houses on the land the contractor owned in his home state of nebraska. there were 2 crews from nebraska with 3 men each also building the same model of homes at the same site. the foundations were ready for framing when we got there. the nebraska crew #1 were full time carpenters, and they framed 2 houses in 3 weeks. neb crew #2 were farmers, they got to work about 9 AM after milking the cows, and built 1 house in 3 weeks. I had never seen anything like it, they put up 1 stud at a time and toe-nailed it. the california crew of 3 journeymen and 1 apprentice (yours truly) framed 6 houses in 3 weeks. we built twice as many with half the manpower in the same amount of time and i can assure you the quality was better than the nebraska crews produced.
you can say what you will about california businessmen being shady, and trying to rush projects through to make the extra buck, but california craftsmen are among the best in the world.
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Scooter1 | |#13
I actually resent the opinion that "California framing" is less than perfect and shoddy.
You see, I made my bones building tract homes in the Valley in the 1960's and 1970's. You learn how to frame a house in three days with a crew of 5, and quickly learn shortcuts on everything, from what tools to carry, what saws to have, how to saw a 2x4, how to coil a cord, what hammers to have, and framing shortcuts. We got a big bonus if we brought in a home under a certain number of man hours, and for a couple of those years I had an awesome crew that could slap those babies up in no time. Everyone knew their job, knew what to do, and and when to do it. It started with an attitude that the "old way" of doing things wasn't necessarily the best, and if there was a way of doing something faster and easier, the crew would seek it out and adopt it.
It was hard work, but a lot of fun and I made buckets of money and great bonuses for fast, efficient work.
Many of the tricks that were taught to me were put in a book by Larry Haun about 10 years ago which I think was called the "Efficient Framer" and is a neat collection of ways to do things faster and more efficient.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
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decornut | |#14
Larry Haun is the author of "The Very Efficient Carpenter", "Homebuilding Basics: Carpentry", and a Habitat for Humanity book "How to Build a House".
Tauton Press publishes all three, by the way.
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Piffin | |#15
I apologize to those of you who value the efficiency of California style framing and retain quality in the process. Production work is fine when quality isn't cut in the process.
But please understand that there are framers across this land who call their work California style framing who are not allowed on jobsites more than once. They work to tolerances of a quarter inch or so instead of an eighth or sixteenth. They leave out headers speced in plans. I've seen 'm hang barge rafters with no supporting framing. The nails in the ply and the fascia are all that is holding up against snow loads. I know LA doesn't have snow but when these methods are exported to other parts of the country, the framers should take the trouble to realize that LA county is only so big and the climate in other places changes methods for reasons sometimes.
I realize that these guys are mostly hacks and not representative of all you finer California framers, but they do create a reputation that follows that name around the country. It's unfortunate, but true.
As for this question, Joe used a term I am more familiar with, layover valleys. It is a shortcut which was the essence of my first post, but an efficient one that doesn't compromise too much except in terms of ventilation perhaps.
Muleskinner, a cant strip is used for the intersection of a low slope roof and a parrapeet wall. It is generally a 2x4 ( sometimes a specially made firm cellulose product) ripped withj two 45° bevels along the edges so that it lets the roofing material rol more smoothly up the wall without a crease at the break..
Excellence is its own reward!
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Redfly | |#21
When building in Oregon in the 70's, we used to hear the term 'California framing' used in a derogatory manner, more or less meaning shoddy production-type framing (coming from one who has never been into production framing). When building in California, I learned the other, more useful meaning of the phrase, simply a section of roof, wall, etc., built on top of existing framing. As others have suggested within this thread, it obviously is a long-accepted technique and has nothing to do with California. But out here on the left coast, if my framer comes to me and asks how I want a section of roof built and I respond "California frame it", he knows exactly what I mean.
Besides, California's not such a bad place after all.
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Scooter1 | |#24
No need to apologize. You have an opinion and you've earned the right to express it!
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
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Piffin | |#25
Maybe, i just wanted to be sure y'all underestood what my opinion is.
There are california framers and then there are hacks who call themselves California framers..
Excellence is its own reward!
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skids | |#19
say boris you didn't by any chance work for wescay construction out of santa paula did you? when you say valley i assume you mean san fernando? i grew up on the central coast and worked for wescay when they had jobs out that way but i bet they worked in the valley to.
i have always thought it was funny to frame the way joe describes in new jersey. i think it is much faster to face nail. it may be stronger to toe-nail, but i don't think it is that much difference after shearing. over the years i got pretty good at framing, but it was always a rush. the foremen out here even call themselves pushers, you are alloted only a certain amount of time on a house, if you are to slow its down the road, this is what tract housing turned into in the 80s & 90s in cali. i always tryed to do the best quality house i could in the alloted time, there was not time totoe nail, something else would have suffered. in that something else suffers when you are to slow with any phase of the framing, and in that environment that we experienced out here in cali, if you do anything other than the most efficient techniques, you are doing poor quality work.
another thing i think that helps the craftsman working at that feverish pace is the amount of reps you get. in that you are doing things over and over so many times the skill and accuracy you develop with the tools is better than the slower pace will develop. its a degree of difficulty thing, just my opinion.
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Framer | |#22
i have always thought it was funny to frame the way joe describes in new jersey. i think it is much faster to face nail. it may be stronger to toe-nail, but i don't think it is that much difference after shearing.
Skids, Have you ever tried framing like we do? If you haven't, In all fairness,I don't know how you can say that face nailing is muchfaster when you never tried it.
I did frame your way for a year out in Cape Cod back in 1984. It was different. I like it especially with sheathing the walls on the deck. There were some heavy walls and alot of guys used wall jacks.
it may be stronger to toe-nail, but i don't think it is that much difference after shearing. over the years i got pretty good at framing,
We don't shear nail around here. I wouldn't even know how unless I learn from you guys or in a book.
We don't worry about sheathing because we have sheathers that do it for us. Like I said befor, the house I just framed was 5000 s/f and they sheathed it in 4 hours.
As far as you face nailing you still have to cut your shoe/sole plate, two top plates, so do we. Some guys in the Cape would go around after the walls were up and put their second top plate where as some guys would do it on the deck befor they raised the walls, we did it that way because I couldn';t see walking around with a step ladder and nailing on the top plates.
The way we do it is nail our shoe down and nailthetwo top plates together write in the same spot, tacked into the shoe and then lay everything out and pull the tacked nails out and pull the top plate back and lay it upside down and nail all the headers, king studs and liners/jacks, then drop the the king studs overand toe-nail all the studs in and lift the walls up on top of the nailed shoe and then toe-nail everything off.
As we're framing all the outside walls first someone is filling in the window sills and jacks, where as you guys do that befor the walls are up.
I will sheath my gable ends and put all the rakes on because I like doing rakes on a nice flat deck instaed of hanging off the roof sheathing.
I 've framed both ways "Jersey Style" and "California Style" and to me it's a matter of Team work and a good system who gets it done faster and with Quality.
Joe Carola
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Timuhler | |#23
Joe,
How big is your crew? I'm not sure why I've never asked you that before. Right now we have 4 guys who frame. One guy, the one with the most experience, but won't learn anything new :-( only comes to work when he feels like it. So there are really on me, Jason and the new guy. I would love to have 4 guys, two of whom don't have huge egos and are just learning.
Do you find that your crew works better together when everyone has a realistic understanding of their own skills?
We had this kid a few years ago. He was about 4 years younger than me. He would come out after school and in the summer and he told me one day, "I have more experience than you". No joke. We had this bumpout bay with 45° walls and instead of framing the partial octagon roof we just had the main roof cover it. Since we birdblock square to the rafter tails, there were 2 funky birdblocks that sat above those 45 walls. He spent 2 hours with a mitersaw trial and erroring the miters and bevel on those 2 blocks. When he got done he had me come over and take a look. Then he said "you couldn't have done that." I remember telling him that if he could do it, anyone can. Trial and error with a miter saw is not skill.
Anyway, we've pretty much weeded out the egos like that who won't work as a team and our speed and quality has really improved.
How do you organize your crew? Does everyone have a pretty good attitude (besides you of course :-)?
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skids | |#26
yes joe on occasion i have framed that way, but only on remodel/or some sort of repair where i didn't have room. i'm not used to it so it goes slow for me, i agree with what you say about being familiar with a system being the best way to go. it takes many repetitions to get a system down.
one thing i learned about being efficient is to do everything you can to pre-assemble something and install as large as you can. it is typical in california for 1 or 2 man crews to frame as many walls as they can, then the call goes out to "go high" and other crews or indivduals will come and help you raise your walls. sometimes they are even stacked with exterior walls framed last cause they go up first. when you have a small sub-division of 10-12 houses of similar floor plan thats the way we do it for the most work accomplished with the least amount of man hours.
also what i am calling shear, you call sheathing. i guess its called shear paneling in cali cause of the earthquakes.
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woodbutch | |#38
Skids,
You hit that mutha right on the head. My three year old son can frame faster and cleaner then those boys using a plastic fisher price saw and hammer! Hack, S.D. Calif.
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RichardAIA | |#16
Mike:
A couple of the guys got it right. Out here in California, framing overlapping roofs this way (using flats on top of analready-framed lower roof to support the low end of rafters, rather than using a valley rafter) is very common. "California framing" is a very specific roof framing technique here, and not generic at all. Interesting that it seems so obscure in other parts of the country, since it's a handy trick to avoid reframing an existing roof when you're doing an addition.
Enjoyable to see some of theframers above expose their own ignorance while trashing architects (who obviously couldn'tPOSSIBLY know the first thing about framing).
Richard
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Framer | |#17
A couple of the guys got it right. Out here in California, framing overlapping roofs this way (using flats on top of analready-framed lower roof to support the low end of rafters, rather than using a valley rafter) is very common. "California framing" is a very specific roof framing technique here, and not generic at all. Interesting that it seems so obscure in other parts of the country, since it's a handy trick to avoid reframing an existing roof when you're doing an addition.
In NJ everyone frames this way and I've never heard of this being called California Framing. We call them False Valleys/Blind Valleys/Layover Valleys, whatever you want to call it, it's a standard way of framing we do it all the time.
Structurally there's nothing wrong with it. We frame the main roof first then lay down what we call "Sleepers" 2x10's or 2x12's and nail the valley jacks right on top. I do alot of additions and this procedure is done all the time when you have an addition perpendicular off the back of a house, we frame the valleys right on top of the existing roof and if the existing wall below is going to come out we put structural beams in.
If there's going to be a cathedral ceiling then we'll remove the existing rafters and install True Valleys.
The only time we use True Valleys is when there's no supporting wall underneath or the span is to great that you would need a very large structural beam or steel but I've done that also.
Bottom line is we do just as many True Valleys as we do False Valleys, it all depends on what your framing. There's a million different scenarios for roof designs but both ways work and False Valley Framing is inno way a lack of quality framing or lacking in structural framing.
I framedfour dormers withfalse valley on top of a roof that had a structural ridge and collar ties underneath because of a Tray ceiling. The plans called for two 1/2" carriage bolts on each side of the collar tie because of the weight of the false valleys above.
The only time we use the word California in our framing is when some builders or GC''s California Corners,the outside corners of the wallsand we've used them quite a few times.
What I call California Framing is when you face nail all your studs and sheath the walls and then raise them. They do that in Cape Cod also because that's how I learned how to frame California Style. We don't do that here in NJ, we toenail our studs, we nail our shoe/sole plate first, tack our first top plate in to the shoe and then nail the second of the two top plates right into the first top plate., lay out all the plates and then pull back the top plates and toenail our studs into them, raise the wall and then toenail the studs into the shoe. When we're done framing a house we call the sheathers in and they sheath a 5000 s/f house in 4 hrs and their gone.
So the only thing I've ever used the term "California Framing" is for Walls and Outside Corners.
BTW, I just looked in a book that I have and it was was called a "Farmers Valley".
That's a new one.
Joe Carola
Edited 8/23/2003 8:55:43 AM ET by Framer
Edited 8/23/2003 9:07:06 AM ET by Framer
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SamT | |#18
And here I thought that what is now called platform framing was originally called California framing.
I guess that a lot of construction ideas in use all over have come from the land of cheap and shoddy workmanship.
SamT
True, the white man brought great change. But the varied fruits of his civilization, though highly colored and inviting, are sickening and deadening. And if it be the part of civilization to maim, rob, and thwart, then what is progress?
I am going to venture that the man who sat on the ground in his tipi meditating on life and its meaning, accepting the kinship of all creatures, and acknowledging unity with the universe of things, was infusing into his being the true essence of civilization....
Chief Luther Standing Bear, 1933, From the Land of the Spotted Eagle, p.515
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Timuhler | |#20
I think that most framers here in Washington learned to frame from guys who came up from California. Most of our techniques are very similar. My uncle who used to frame for us went through the apprenticeships in California and he was a good framer. He just chose to take the lazy way of framing often times. He could turn out a great product though.
Here we face nail everything. I personally believe that it is strong. There was an article in JLC in the "Practical Engineering" column about nailing. The author was an engineer and he stated flat out that toenailing doesn't have the lateral strength that face nailing has. He stated that in the case of toenailing, you are relying on the sheathing to support the studs laterally. That's not a big deal because we all sheathe our exterior walls. Here, though because of our seismic zone, our interior walls wouldn't pass inspection if they were toenailed.
I'm curious, how long would it take your crew ( this is to everyone)to frame a 2500 sq house? How many days (if more than one) does it take to frame the exterior walls and the interior walls on a given floor? Around here, in the developments we build in, the quality of framers isn't that great and it seems like some crews really takea long time and there isn't any reason why. It's not that they don't hustle and it isn't that they are slow for the sake of quality. I think it is techniques.
Skids,
I tried sending you an email, but it was returned. What kinds of techniques do you think sped up the framing process the most for you? I knowa lot of speed comes from everyone being on the same page and knowing what thier role is and hustling, but what techniques do you find saved you the most time compared to other guys you have observed? I'm always looking for better ways of doing things.
We recently framed a house that we have framed no less than probably 8 times. When I first started framing in the summers after school (mid 90's) I framed on this plan. It is one of our best sellers. I have framed that with many different guys and when I was the clean up guy, I watched how the different framers framed this house. Well in June we framed it in 12 days (3 guys for almost the entire time, we had a 4th guy, but he just doesn't come in sometimes. Long story). It was about 2500 sq ft and had a stick framed roof. That is the fastest that house has been framed by about a week at least and the quality was very high. I'm proud of that house. The biggest reasons why we improved the speed so much was that everything was organized. Our old lead framer wouldn't organize everyone so you had guys with little or no experience doing what they wanted. On this job, I assigned guys and we all knew what our roles were. That alone(+ hustle) sped things up big time. In fact we were able to frame one extra house before our company took vacation. We had had things scheduled out we got done so much faster that we got an extra house framed.
I'd love to get some tips, from organizing your crew to how you layout your plates or anything that can save time.
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skids | |#27
tim, i haven't framed houses in production for some time now, in the mid 80s housing was slow in SF bay area, and i started doing bridge building, structural concrete. when the loma prieta earthquake hit there was tons of retrofit work.then i started to learn welding, at the apprentice training center in pleasanton ca., journeyman upgrade classes. i spent quite a bit of time at the training center, taking every class i could as a member of pile drivers, divers, carpenters, bridge wharf & dock builderslocal 34. i was asked by then apprentice instructor to apply for the job as apprentice instructor, i was quite flattered, and i made it through 3 interviews before being cut, but i was the youngest to be considered.
i was given advice when i was 18-19 yrs old by a small contractor on a remodel job that i have followed throughout my life. he said the best thing you can do to make yourself a better carpenter is to learn another trade. we are always opening up walls and discovering pipes and wires that need relocating etc etc. this also lends itself well to the overall picture of how things come together. if you can make the next step in the sequence easier for the person doing that job your money ahead. i think it helps to look backwards and see what would have made your current task easier and use those techniques. i think it also prepares you well for being in business for yourself to have worked in the crew for various trades.
the main thing is to never stop learning. i am still taking college classes to improve my construction skills. this forum is an excellent place to learn, there are many here who are expert, and passionate about what they do. i have learned much here and greatly appreciate those that contribute, and taunton for providing it.
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Edgar76b | |#28
It's ironic that you bring this up . because it is exactly what I am doing right now. tying in to an old truss roof with a supporting wall in the center and a king post built in the truss. I plan to use the barge board idea, i am going to tie in to the top of every truss where it crosses. maybe some of you remember i asked about this before. And I know cutting trusses is considered a NO No , But i don't see why In my situation, Eventually,True valleys couldn't be added to extend the the Perpendicular cathedral ceiling into the main house.
As it stands Now i am going to frame up a gable wall on the inside of the roof above the door opening. And i plan to open the sheathing in places between the trusses. Like 1 foot holesto alow circulation of the main roff with My new ridge vent.Where there's A wheel there's a way, got any wheels?
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woodbutch | |#36
I was a california framer, the only termanology I've herd of is a California fill. Tom's responce sounds to me like a California fill. And by the way, California framers have to build by the same UBC codes that all you midwest and east coast butchers frame to and more,( considering our history of shake, rattel and roll )and also strict quality control by home builders in my area. So just because were much, much faster then the others dont bash us for you inadequate performances. Hack, S.D. Calif.
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